Veronika Kyrylenko: Hi everyone. This is Veronica Kyrylenko with the New American magazine. We’re in Madison Virginia, where we’re hosted by Dr. Robert Malone, a brilliant scientist and the original inventor of mRNA vaccine technology, turned freedom fighter and a fearless troublemaker, taking on the deep state now.
Dr. Malone, just as the memory of COVID was beginning to fade from the public minds, like a haunting nightmare with occasional reminders caused by painfully slow congressional hearings regarding the Bethesda Boys and their knowledge timeline, you sir, inadvertently dropped a nuclear truth bomb. You aimed not at the regular usual suspects like the NIH technocrats that were practically caught red-handed in Wuhan. You sir, aimed not at the DOD that had its own shady dealings and business with the Wuhan lab.
Now, Dr. Malone, you aimed at Langley. While speaking with Steve Bannon last week, you said quoting your sources from inside the CIA,
“Clearly the United States intelligence community was at the heart of this whole COVID crisis, working together with the CCP throughout this entire affair.”
So first of all, let’s set the records straight and focus on the first part of your statement. What do you mean, the intelligence community was at the heart of this whole COVID crisis? Which role exactly did our intelligence community play before and during the pandemic?
Dr. Robert Malone: When I speak of the intelligence community, it’s a very broad spectrum of capabilities that includes the Department of Defense activities, under Tony Fauci, as it also includes the NIH (biodefense research activities). And then, it’s even larger than that because of the Five Eyes Alliance. So this is Great Britain or UK, Canada, US, Australia and New Zealand; all the lockdown countries that have been perhaps most aggressive in their propaganda, use of fifth generation warfare, the censorship, retaliation against civilian populations, et cetera.
So when I speak of the intelligence community, I’m really talking about a matrix of capabilities that are global, that knowledgeable people within my sphere argue is the most powerful organization on earth. That currently, full stop, has amazing global reach. Obviously, the intelligence community has no moral compunctions about manipulating elections, assassination of foreign leaders or a number of other activities that most of us would consider to be unethical. But these are justified as necessary or supportive of the interests of this kind of imperialistic world that we live in right now.
With the desire by leading economic powers and their surrogates and governmental organizations to gain power and control over resources and all kinds of things. Even to the level that various speakers representing the World Economic Forum and the United Nations use language like “we own the science”. So I’m talking about the entire matrix.
What has been their role throughout this COVID crisis? And as you know Veronika, this has been a journey that I’ve been on. This has been my daily work in trying to understand the underpinnings of a COVID crisis and how the world has responded to that.
For me, I’ve had this journey of discovery. For instance, through Ernst Wolff’s thinking, that a lot of this was driven by an economic agenda and manipulated by various economic forces. Many people assert that the central banks and the Bank of International Settlements has been the puppet master behind all of this. And there’s various theories that have been floated that it was old European royalty, that it was the British crown, that it was the cabal of central banks, that it was, as I mentioned, the BIS (Bank of International Settlements), that it was the WEF, or that it was the CCP. That it was the CCP has been the initial thesis that was promoted so aggressively by many people. That this was all the CCP pulling the strings of the West. I have been really reluctant and yet also criticized for imagining that the United States government had a major role in this.
As you know, I’m subject to daily attacks from people who assert that because I’ve worked on vaccines and because I’ve worked with the government, I’m compromised and I’m controlled opposition and I’m a liar, and nothing I say should be paid attention to.
Veronika Kyrylenko: You are the worst controlled opposition ever, doctor.
Dr. Robert Malone: Bobby Kennedy said, “if he’s controlled opposition, send us 10 more.”
So there’s some things that have really bothered me all the way through this. One was having the opportunity to hear and interact directly with Michael Callahan early on in the outbreak. He said a series of things. Michael Callahan being a retired CIA officer who was at DARPA, who was a program officer responsible for a lot of the modern biologics programs.
Veronika Kyrylenko: And DARPA is with NIH.
Dr. Robert Malone: No, DARPA is Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, and DARPA is the operational, let’s say, skunk works – the operational developmental arm of the CIA.
Veronika Kyrylenko: I was thinking about BARDA, I’m sorry.
Dr. Robert Malone: So DARPA is the one that developed the SR-71 spy plane. They’re the ones that really did develop the internet, ARPANET. And they’re at the forefront of technology development for basically our intelligence community <including human augmentation for military purposes>. So Callahan has deep roots, and when you read through Whitney Webb’s article, DARPA’s Man in Wuhan about Michael Callahan, she provides a level of detail and granularity about his CV that I was not even aware of, and that is as somebody who has published with him and worked with him for a few years.
So to recap, Callahan gave me a call on January 2nd of 2020, in which he told me that this virus, while he was in Wuhan at the time <that was what he told me>, that there was this coronavirus that looked like a real threat. That it had emerged into the population in Wuhan and that I should get the people that I’ve been associated with loosely (for years) activated and focused on trying to come up with potential solutions for this in terms of medical countermeasures- drugs or vaccines- for this new coronavirus that had emerged in Wuhan.
At the time, I didn’t even know where Wuhan was. I had no idea of the importance of Wuhan economically in the CCP set up and its role as a central manufacturing facility and technology hub for the CCP in China. So I got this call and then, I had a series of interactions with Michael over the next few months. Among those was me calling him in early February as I recall.
I had downloaded this “Wuhan seafood market virus” sequence from the NIH sequence database as soon as it was released, which I think was January 10th or January 11th, and started working on modeling x-ray crystallography based on that sequence, et cetera, so we could work on computational drug discovery (to discover repurposed drugs with anti-viral properties). And I had a series of conversations with Michael on and off.
He shared with me what he was doing at various points in time (early in the pandemic). For instance, he was on point for the Diamond Princess outbreak. At the time, I was directly interacting with passengers on the Diamond Princess and learning from them what was going on. He was on point for the design and deployment of the tent hospitals in New York City, and he was on point for development of the protocols and management of the elder care facilities throughout the United States beginning in the West Coast. So those are three kind of key things in the timeline of COVID. In February 2020, I challenged him:
“Michael, this seems like it was a engineered virus that came from the laboratory, this laboratory Wuhan Institute-”
Veronika Kyrylenko: Why would you assume that?
Dr. Robert Malone: Because of the … Remember in late January and early February (2020), the information control hadn’t really completely clamped down and there was a lot of buzz going on and chatter about the characteristics of the virus, the furin cleavage site and other characteristics. Remember, I’m deep in analyzing the sequence, other characteristics that were not consistent with the natural origin, and the storyline that we were all told, even with the labeling of the original sequence, the Wuhan seafood market virus. We went through this series of alternate explanations about Chinese people eating bat soup, remember? And about the nature of the Wuhan seafood market, and it’s a live market, and they’re bringing all these animals in from all over China.
… it was discussed about Pangolins being a source, and there were Pangolin viruses and a variety of bat virus sequences, et cetera, that you could compare to. And certainly, there was a significant overlap with the Pangolin sequences as well as some of the bat sequences. So I challenged Michael, that it appeared that there was this storyline coming out, which seemed to have some merit, that this was a laboratory engineered virus. And his response was quite literally- I’m pretty sure I got the exact quote-
“My people have been all over this sequence and there’s absolutely no evidence that it was engineered, okay?”
So I took that to mean his colleagues at DARPA or the CIA, had analyzed the sequence and there was no evidence that it had the classic hallmarks of recombinant DNA, which would be restriction enzyme ligation sites that are very easy to find, standard algorithms.
And I took that as gospel. I said, “Okay, Michael, therefore it must be”. Over time, it’s become clear as the information has come out that what was used in engineering viruses, coronaviruses at Wuhan Institute of Virology was a technology that had been transferred apparently through Ralph Baric and EcoHealth Alliance into Wuhan Institute of Virology. That this tech transfer had allowed the engineering of novel sequences or manipulation of a viral backbone sequence without creating the hallmarks of classic recombinant DNA. Okay, so suddenly Michael’s statement, if you unpack it, with that in mind, then “my people”, is a euphemism. He would also use terms like “the Secret Handshake Club” to relate to his network of colleagues and contacts.
“My people have been all over this virus”. I took this to mean that the CIA and its contractors had carefully analyzed the virus sequence and that they saw no evidence that it was engineered. That is saying that it doesn’t have any of the hallmarks of classical recombinant DNA. But at that point, Michael must have known that this alternative recombinant DNA technology existed. In thinking back on what was said to me, his statement appears to have been duplicitous. Later on, I caught him in a number of lies, and that’s when I stopped dealing with him. So Michael is clearly a highly skilled liar as virtually all CIA agents are. They’re trained in how to deceive, that’s a core part of CIA training.
Veronika Kyrylenko: What was going on in Wuhan, doctor?
Dr. Robert Malone: My understanding of all of this is that coronaviruses were identified as a suitable platform for engineering of bio warfare agents quite a long time ago, years ago. Coronaviruses were one of the high profile targets for engineering for biowarfare purposes.
And you can turn that around because we always … in this space, they use the language of what’s called dual function <dual use> research.
For war or for peace
The first meaning of dual use describes technologies that can have both military and civilian uses. For example, technologies useful in industry or agriculture can also be used to create chemical weapons.
Dr. Robert Malone: So to say that it was a suitable agent for bio warfare, is also to say that it is a high profile agent for investigation for a potential risk – a threat assessment… so, dual purpose. There are a series of publications in peer-reviewed major journals talking about coronavirus and coronavirus engineering. We now know that the preponderance of evidence is that the furin cleavage site, which enables higher infectivity and transmissibility in humans was engineered. It does not have the hallmarks of having been from a natural source. We’ve had a series of disinformation campaigns trying to assert otherwise.
The preponderance of evidence is that it was engineered, that it was engineered with the cooperation of EcoHealth Alliance, that there was a close operational collaboration between Ralph Barrack’s group and the woman commonly referred to as the bat lady at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that a series of mutants were generated. Those mutant viruses were then passaged, that part of this involved humanized mice… just to give you a background on what are humanized mice. You can take a immunodeficient mouse and implant human tissue into it and it will reconstruct something like a human immune system. This is a very expensive advanced technology, but it allows for the creation of genetically engineered mice that’ll be more supportive for this kind of technology.
<Back to Wuhan.> There was serial passage of these coronaviruses in this mouse model. So that’s one way that you can select viruses that are then going to be more likely to be infectious to humans, is by passaging them mouse to mouse to mouse, in a mouse model that has been humanized; that has basically a surrogate human immune system.
We know that with the biodefense enterprise, broadly writ, in the United States, the CIA is intimately integrated into all levels. That’s why I have all these CIA contacts is that I was brought into the biodefense community after 9/11 when I went to work for DynPort Vaccine company (because the Norwegian investors in the newco which Jill and I helped launch had pulled out after 9-11 and we had no income).
There is a case to be made, and I’ve spoken about this repeatedly, that there is a bonafide threat of both naturally occurring, emerging infectious disease from environmental disruption, as as well as the threat of engineered pathogens coming out of the usual sources including those cited in Kenneth Alibek‘s disclosures regarding the former Soviet Union programs and known bio warfare R&D going on within the People’s Republic of China. Then there are various efforts in Middle Eastern countries and others as well as. Of course, Israel has never signed the bio warfare treaty. So there’s a lot of “players” in this space that are very aware of these infectious pathogens, even though they are ostensibly banned by the warfare treaty, (except in Israel, which is not a signatory). These players could be and are likely to be modifying genetically genetic organisms for weaponization. (So this research) is justified as basically something akin to the mutually assured destruction argument. The other guy is doing it and so therefore we have to, because we don’t want to get left behind technologically.
The (purported) underpinning logic of EcoHealth Alliance and what was being done was revealed in the DARPA grant application that Project Veritas captured so long ago that most people have forgotten about it. The logic, that tortured logic, was that EcoHealth Alliance would engineer viruses that would be more highly infectious and pathogenic in humans. Then, attenuate them, but enable them to be more highly infectious in bats and deploy them into bat caves, to infect the bats with these modified engineered viruses so that the bats would mount an immune response against those parts of the viruses that would make them more pathogenic in humans. This is very upside down logic. As I’ve mentioned, the intelligence community is throughout the entire biodefense enterprise globally. <This is where “duel use” research is a useful idea – that is, publicly asserting a military research project is actually a for some other civilian purpose>.
Veronika Kyrylenko: Hold on, doctor. Before we go there, you mentioned that it was exposed by the Project Veritas, right? EcoHealth Alliance went to DARPA, but if I remember correctly, DARPA rejected this grant proposal but NIH did not.
Dr. Robert Malone: Right, <A “leaked” assessment of the origins of the virus by the US military asserts that> Tony Fauci funded it <but Fauci was responsible for the entire US biodefense portfolio>. That’s one of the ways in which he amassed such massive power is he maintained oversight and approval authority for these major programs. The problem with all of that, not to get down to the weeds, is that we can’t prove that that wasn’t actually a CIA disinformation campaign to shift blame onto NIH and away from CIA and DoD.
Veronika Kyrylenko: But they were there, your friends or ex-friends, Michael Callahan was there. What were they doing there in Wuhan?
Dr. Robert Malone: So Callahan has used his position at Harvard, that’s his cover. And Harvard Medical School has a reciprocal arrangement with a university that’s basically across the river from Wuhan, and he was there under that cover. And he had extremely detailed information about the Chinese investment and capabilities as it related to bio surveillance and particularly related to Coronaviruses. He had details that he shared with me about the number of PCR machines and the testing protocols and capabilities that the Chinese government had. When he went there, he cites … I think it’s in a National Geographic article by Brendan Borrell. He discusses that he arrives and he’s put into the same hotel room that he used to always get put into when he was with the agency (CIA). So clearly they know who he is and why he’s there. What happens is that they allow him into the main hospital on an observer basis for a day to observe how they’re treating these respiratory cases, which of course is this aggressive ventilation that has been responsible for so much death throughout Europe, particularly Italy and the United States. So they show him how they’re managing COVID. He ostensibly is consulting and then he … according to the Borrell articles, he then goes back, I guess to the university environment – where he has some friends/contacts and he’s allowed to Skype in on a daily basis for a while as they are discussing the Chinese physicians, discussing the management of these various cases.
Then he tells me that he is directly managed something like 600 SARS-CoV-2 patients in Wuhan during his brief … I think it was two weeks that he’s there.
Veronika Kyrylenko: When was it? I’m sorry.
Dr. Robert Malone: And this is in January of 2020. That’s a functional impossibility. Okay. It was a lie, but he used this, he leveraged this lie to establish himself as the leading expert in the management of SARS-CoV-2 in the United States. Which is why he was put into position at the Diamond Princess, the New York Hospital – tent hospital and the nursing homes. By the way, through all of this, he’s reporting directly to Bob Kadlec, who is the assistant secretary of preparedness and response, and I believe has deep intelligence community ties.
So they’re all … the intelligence community is throughout this entire enterprise and has been for, as you know, since Operation Paperclip, when we imported Japanese and German biowarfare experts… and you’ll find out more about Operation Paperclip for those who are not facile with that in Bobby Kennedy Junior’s new book that’s going to be coming out shortly.
Bobby goes in depth into paperclip in which we basically imported scientists, just like we did with the Wernher von Braun and the Rocket Program. We imported a bio warfare infectious disease, bio warfare specialist from the Japanese and German programs after World War II. The Japanese program was notoriously unethical, would be the kindest way I could put it.
There was a hospital where prisoners were kept well-fed because it was believed they needed to be … and you’ll recall in the Japanese internment camps, people were starved to death routinely. These prisoners were kept well-fed because they felt that was necessary for the experimentation, and for instance, they had cells in which they would have to put their arm out in order to get fed, and then, they would be inoculated with material. It was believed that … this is the most shocking thing I’ve heard about all this. It was believed that in order to get good data, they would do the autopsy on live patients.
Veronika Kyrylenko: Basically murdering-
Dr. Robert Malone: More than murdering. Torture would be the kindest way you could put it. These are the people that came to Fort Detrick and founded our biodefense/bio warfare program. They were imported directly for this purpose. So that’s the origin of the whole biodefense enterprise.
I had no idea about all of this three years ago. I knew about the involvement of the intelligence community. Anyhow, getting back on track, IC has had deep roots throughout the biodefense enterprise and biowarfare enterprise before that for decades and decades. My understanding is just to put the cherry on top, the amount of capital invested in our bio warfare program in the United States exceeded the amount invested in our nuclear warfare program.
We have Callahan lying about a whole series of things that when you look at the lies, they really reveal a deep, intimate knowledge of the whole situation at Wuhan and an intimate knowledge of what the Chinese government did, what the CCP did in response to the entry of the virus into the human population. That’s a way we can phrase that without committing to whether it was a lab leak or otherwise. We know-
Veronika Kyrylenko: Was it not? Because it’s an important question because usually when we discuss the release of COVID virus, of SARS-CoV-2, we usually refer to that as a leak, which suggests that it was accidental, but how do we know that it wasn’t?
Dr. Robert Malone: We don’t. What I am understanding, and again, I have to caution everything because we’re in an environment in which a disinformation is being actively deployed, and we’ve had multiple different stories told to us through the press, corporate media and the government, such as the various animal origins, et cetera, and they continue to be told. So, it’s really difficult to sort out what is disinformation- intentional propaganda- and what is reality,
We just get into a very fuzzy domain in terms of the science, much of which is not published, so we can’t really assess it. So we have Callahan there with intimate details being brought in by the CCP in a very limited strange way, allowed to assimilate information about their treatment protocols and processes and bring that, import that back into the United States. We also know through a variety of other sources, that we had individuals in the White House, in the national security apparatus that were receiving information directly from Wuhan physicians in parallel that we now recognize was propaganda (Matthew Pottinger, see this substack essay for a summary). And we had these concerted propaganda campaigns, it’s unclear from whom, about people dying in the streets in Wuhan and the build out of the hospital.
You remember the rapid build out of the hospital, so there’s this whole origin of the virus is shrouded in propaganda layers and layers and layers of propaganda. So then we see … so why would the intelligence community have this footprint and intimate knowledge and awareness, situational awareness of what’s going on at the Wuhan Institute of Virology? That’s been an outstanding question.
Veronika Kyrylenko: And then trying to suppress it.
Dr. Robert Malone: And actively trying to suppress it. That’s some of the newer information. And that information comes to me from multiple sources. This thesis that … and I’ve had it in the back of my mind waiting until I got enough independent validation that it could hit a tipping point.
The thesis that’s been floated repeatedly to me by insiders is so that … as Bannon would put it, the theory of the case is that the human intelligence assets that the CIA had in China relating to their bioengineering and bio warfare programs were identified apparently because of a mole in the United States and were all eliminated. In other words, they were all killed, and it happened a few years ago before this. I’ve known that the CIA had a variety of different sources of intelligence regarding infectious disease in China for years and years and years and these assets were no longer there. They knew that China was actively advancing a variety of different bio warfare capabilities, programmatic capabilities, and they had no eyes on it.
By the way, the whole storyline that I was in charge of programs at DTRA is laughable. I was a small subcontractor with a DoD secret clearance. There’s no way that a subcontractor would be given a programmatic authority over major biodefense programs such as DOMANE. So that’s a whole false storyline that’s been developed and repeatedly amplified by some of my detractors.
And yes, DOMANE did take credit for the development of Remdesivir because of what DTRA had done during the Ebola outbreak, working together with Michael Callahan.
DTRA (Defense Threat Reduction Agency ) has a threat mitigation branch, which was really all about nuclear threat mitigation and reduction. They were the ones that had launched this surreptitious successful program into the former Soviet Union to buy up the loose nukes. You may recall this famous initiative, and from that had grown similar programs in the biologic space in which DTRA, as they had done in the former Soviet Union, would fund scientists in those areas ostensibly to get them to be friendly.
So there is this threat mitigation branch within DoD/DTRA, which works on both nuclear threats and biologic threats, and originally, DTRA had denied that they had anything to do with funding the Wuhan Institute of Virology, but then it was shared with me by someone within DTRA who I asked specifically to find out about this, that yes, in fact, the threat mitigation branch <in DTRA> had been funding the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
The logic that this individual shared with me was that it this was being done so that scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology would not have financial incentives to go rogue, just as the logic had been with the former Soviet scientists in the nuclear programs. Now, on face that fails plausibility, because if you think about it, pretty much everybody in the medical scientific complex within China, including the foreigns that come into the United States for postgraduate training, et cetera, are all tightly linked to CCP. They will be taken out if they go off the reservation. I’m talking about death, sudden death, not from cardiac taking the jab. So this was the (apparently fake) storyline that was provided to my colleague was that we were doing this funding, in the Wuhan Institute of Virology of two specific scientists in order to reduce the risk that they would go rogue in some way.
<The other reason given was> that DTRA was gathering intelligence. So that was the first time that I became aware that there was US activity involving capitalizing the Wuhan Institute of Virology and specific scientists in order to gather intelligence and build relationships with those scientists. Then as time has gone by, I’ve heard this story in different versions from different people, and what comes out of all of that is that again and again that the CIA had lost its human intelligence eyes within the CCP on their biowarfare training programs and that a decision had been made to engage in a quid pro quo relationship with the CCP through the Wuhan Institute of Virology, in which there would be a certain amount of technology transfer and funding.
And we know from Bob Redfield (ex-director of the CDC), in sworn testimony to Congress, said that funding also came from USAID, which is often a cutout for the CIA through the State Department, and from DOD, and from NIH. So we now (in the present) have the receipts for most of those. In our pre-talk, I mentioned Diane Cutler, the federal investigator who is working with Senator Marshall and also working in the house, digging into all the receipts for these various funding streams that have gone back to the Wuhan Institute of Virology. So it appears that what happened was that through EcoHealth Alliance, there was with financial support and organizational support from the intelligence community, DTRA and USAID and NIAID.
There was funding of research at Wuhan Institute of Virology together with technology transfer and specific support of individuals within Wuhan Institute of Virology to engage in engineering of coronaviruses <gain-of-function>, mutant coronaviruses, and that’s now pretty well documented, and I’ve heard it from multiple different streams.
Why would they be doing this? Apparently, it was all because of the potential upside of at least limited intelligence concerning the capabilities of the CCP in engineering biopathogens, but the paradox being that we’re enabling that and providing technology transfer to enable it and advance that technology of our opponent.
Veronika Kyrylenko: In the official United States documents as the greatest geopolitical threat.
Dr. Robert Malone: Yeah.
Veronika Kyrylenko: And yet, here we are, transferring down technology.
Dr. Robert Malone: Absolutely, and we have these various statements from Fauci and Collins and others that were involved. In particular, this scientist from Scripps, Dutch scientist Kristian Andersen. This was the individual that had written one of the early essays, discounting advancing the natural origin and discounting the lab leak, but had previously been a fan of the lab leak hypothesis, and then was turned somehow and had a large pending grant with Tony Fauci at the time. In this dialogue, there’s statements to the effect that we have to protect the Chinese and this was part of the core logic-
Veronika Kyrylenko: To protect ourselves.
Dr. Robert Malone: Bingo. So when you factor in all these things and then you factor in the fact that we saw a global propaganda campaign, the likes of which the world has never seen before, deployed in a harmonized fashion through press and everything else, the distribution of massive capital- funding globally to buy influencers in a harmonized, simultaneous fashion. Well, I was still wondering what the heck was going on, they were busy buying up artists and influencers, and we saw the various televised propaganda put out. We saw the harmonization of messaging on corporate media, globally. I have always, and I was able to see this in part because I took the jab and was able to travel.
And as I traveled to Europe and Italy and the UK, what blew my mind was the things that we were seeing happen in the United States were happening all over the world in a harmonized, simultaneous fashion. That’s really hard to imagine an organization, even the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, even the World Health Organization or the WEF, as having the necessary power and coordination skills to pull this off. I just couldn’t wrap my head around the possibility that any one of those organizations, let alone the central banks, had that much power. And in the Brett Weinstein podcast, we talked about … this is with Steve Kirsch, the Dark Horse podcast, the kind of early event that thrust me under wing stage-
Veronika Kyrylenko: June 2021.
Dr. Robert Malone: We talked about emergent phenomena that this might just be the consequence of simultaneous things happening and separate actors acting on their own initiatives, and the result would be this vector sum of things. I’ve never felt comfortable with that as an explanation for why we would see this amazing harmonization of propaganda, censorship, messaging strategies, technical strategies like the purchasing of influencers, et cetera, globally. Then, a colleague … a close colleague of mine who actually employs a former director of the CIA, he and I talk about this from time to time, discussing who is the puppet master? What’s behind all this? We had a discussion in which he related a conversation with his employee (former DCIA) regarding the global power and reach of the CIA, in which the former DCIA concluded that the CIA was currently the most powerful organization in the world, perhaps the most powerful global organization in human history. This is one of those things I haven’t wanted to believe…
<To be continued in Part II>
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